[Ready] Grammar Use & Punctuation: ACP - Community - Forums + General Areas + User Groups

  • In my optinion it's much clearer to list the possible values after the basic explanation.

    It could be after the sentence, but it might be somewhat improper then, I'm not sure. And shouldn't use brackets for it, but ( ) instead, as far as I know... http://www.thepunctuationguide.com/parentheses.html


    example:


    Diff
    - <item name="wcf.acp.group.option.user.board.floodControlTime.description"><![CDATA[Minimum period between creation of two posts. [time in seconds]]]></item>
    + <item name="wcf.acp.group.option.user.board.floodControlTime.description"><![CDATA[Minimum period between creation of two posts. (time in seconds)]]></item>
    or
    - <item name="wcf.acp.group.option.user.board.floodControlTime.description"><![CDATA[Minimum period between creation of two posts. [time in seconds]]]></item>
    + <item name="wcf.acp.group.option.user.board.floodControlTime.description"><![CDATA[Minimum period between creation of two posts. (Time in Seconds)]]></item>

    I'm not sure, but "time in seconds" appears to be wrong, as the "T" and "S" should be uppercase, but then it appears as a start of a new sentence itself, which is left open and no trailing periods, or whatever. If the letters remain lowercase, it's also "off" and don't appear right...




    Please keep in mind to retain an consistent structure independent from the used language.

    It would be consistent after they were all modified, I didn't get that far yet. Besides, there're some places currently where they are inconsistent for both languages, using () in one or two places, but then the rest use [] which isn't technically right at all. Please remember, this is for the English files, and I'm not on your/German side proposing these changes to your language files.


    If I were over there proposing changes, I'd get holy hell for it. But when we want to correct grammar for English-related stuff, the Germans come over here whining about everything under the sun, that shouldn't be changed for suiting the English folk. As if we're supposed to just live with wonky, funny-sounding phrases, and improper grammar and be happy.


    By the time I get done editing things to make you happy, we're back to square one again with nothing accomplished to improve English grammar etc.

    Edited 9 times, last by Smooey ().

  • Sure, but it's only one system that can have many languages and the general meaning and structure should be equal regardless which language is used. There are no your language files and our language files.

    I can understand that, but one would or should want proper grammar in both languages, not just one with wonky, improper grammar, and then leave the other guys hanging and suffering with improper grammar. I guess I can't figure out why anyone in the right mind is perfectly fine and happy with bad/improper grammar usage in their language of choice (this case being the German one). Surely the grammar can be made proper in both, mean the same things in both, and please both.


    http://grammar-monster.com/les…d_and_square_brackets.htm
    http://www.thepunctuationguide.com/brackets.html
    http://www.grammarly.com/blog/2016/parentheses-and-brackets/


    It appears you're not supposed to put brackets outside of the sentences themselves. Like it's been used in the language files currently. () and [] should be used within the sentence before the ending period " . " Which of course, it wouldn't make sense there at the very end, and it would go around the same place I put it / proposed it to be.


    Minimum period between the creation of two posts. (in seconds) = wrong, I think, as it's floating in space, not connected to anything.
    Minimum period between the creation of two posts (in seconds). = better, but still iffy.
    Minimum period (in seconds) between the creation of two posts. = better


    Where the middle one in the image below (the correct one) is like I was proposing above...


    Minimum period (in seconds) between the creation of two posts.


    (in seconds) emphasises the time type; seconds. NOT minutes, but seconds. and if you remove it from the sentence, the sentence still is a sentence.


    That's just one example of course. But to get an idea of where or how brackets and () are used, the info is there.


    Edited 17 times, last by Smooey ().

  • I can understand that, but one would or should want proper grammar in both languages, not just one with wonky, improper grammar, and then leave the other guys hanging and suffering with improper grammar. I guess I can't figure out why anyone in the right mind is perfectly fine and happy with bad/improper grammar usage in their language of choice (this case being the German one). Surely the grammar can be made proper in both, mean the same things in both, and please both.

    It's probably rather pointless to suggest single phrases in single languages. The user interface should be most of all consistent. I prefer the current well known structure. First a crisp description, this can be a sentence, but in most cases some words are perfectly good, and then the possible values (e.g. 'Minimum delay between creation of two consecutive posts in the same thread. [time in minutes, -1 for infinite]').

  • Yes, but I believe that's improper grammar for us English then. The ACP should look and be professional, not like some 10 years old whizzed through it while developing it, incomplete sentences, wonky / funny phrases, opened sentences without punctuation to close the sentences, and the list goes on.


    I'd like to point out again, though, it's not just English & German languages suffering from bad grammar, it's the other languages that get translated from the English ones. e.g. Spanish, Greek, Turkish, Polish, etc.. They all end up with improper grammar usage because heaven forbids Geronimo and other like-minded users don't want change, don't want to adapt, don't want to progress, don't want English here, don't want proper grammar, etc.


    Okay, I revamped them again, to make them a bit shorter and to the point, and kind of a happy middle with those at the end of the sentence. I can then revamp the other ones like these in other threads so they all match.



    I'm not sure about this one though: (in minutes, -1 for infinite) if it should be (in minutes, or, -1 for infinite) or...

    Diff
    - <item name="wcf.acp.group.option.user.board.floodControlTime.description"><![CDATA[Minimum period between creation of two posts. [time in seconds]]]></item>
    + <item name="wcf.acp.group.option.user.board.floodControlTime.description"><![CDATA[The minimum time between the creation of two posts (in seconds).]]></item>




    Diff
    - <item name="wcf.acp.group.option.user.board.doublePostLock.description"><![CDATA[Minimum delay between creation of two consecutive posts in the same thread. [time in minutes, -1 for infinite]]]></item>
    + <item name="wcf.acp.group.option.user.board.doublePostLock.description"><![CDATA[Delay between two consecutive posts (in minutes, -1 for infinite).]]></item>


    Diff
    - <item name="wcf.acp.group.option.user.board.postEditTimeout.description"><![CDATA[During this period members may edit their own posts [time in minutes, -1 for infinite]]]></item></item>
    + <item name="wcf.acp.group.option.user.board.postEditTimeout.description"><![CDATA[The time members may edit their own posts (in minutes, -1 for infinite).]]></item>

    Edited 15 times, last by Smooey ().

  • And Woltlab main language is German

    Woltlab´, German company with main language: German

    And this is by no means a good reason nor an excuse to keep a translation in English that's not up to par with what the competition offers. Besides, I could name you plenty of European software companies (even German-born) that went the extra mile trying to convey an image that portrays them as international and not local brands. Belonging to a European country or another it is not an acceptable justification for not focusing on the one language that allows to reach and appeal to broader markets, and like it or not that language is English.


    consistent structure independent from the used language.

    In this case, the structure should not be kept consistent. You seem to forget that the software was first translated from German to English, in which the translation inherited the structure of the source language. This is one main reason there are so many oddly-sounding words and awkward terminology.


    general meaning and structure should be equal regardless which language is used

    General meaning can be similar while language structure is often sensible to change because the German and English languages do have different structures. Remember that different languages may use distinct words to express same/similar concept. You cannot and should not expect two languages to carry the same concept over literal translations. Actually, literal translations (word by word) is what Google Translate does, and we all know how incorrect and unnatural they can be.


    It's probably rather pointless to suggest single phrases in single languages. The user interface should be most of all consistent

    On the contrary, this software's English translation needs a do-over, and correcting single phrases or words is as a good starting place as any.


    I prefer the current well known structure.

    Maybe well known to you. The current linguistic structure doesn't do a fair job at appealing English native speaker potential customers (the market WBB still struggles to attract). There is an obvious problem with the translation, which can be solved by doing something logical thinking suggest: change approach, try something else. So far, in-house and crowdsourced translations haven't done much to improve the situation.

    Edited once, last by rafix73 ().

  • You did not get my point. I was just pointing out something to smooey and you took it out of context.


    I have of course the same opinion that there should be a proper English translation which would definitely be beneficial for woltlab as well attracting more customers outside of Germany. The software itself is great but not as well known as vb for example. With a proper English translation this might change. I give you that.

  • Yeah, we had to spend waste 7 or so posts worth of the thread, going off topic into telling (reminding) me that Woltlab is an obviously German company, and its the main language is German, whereas all the other companies I mentioned are English based and English is the main language. (Of course, I caught the vice-versa thing myself, and edited the first post to include it/point it out, but wasn't caught by them.) All the while, no one chimes in with any value at all to help get this stuff done quickly. Ya know, the typical shit going on here... lol.


    But as normal, Rafix is right, this isn't an easy task. You can't just edit individual sentences quickly that appeal better to us English folk, without it disrupting the German folks. It's really a job for professionals (even they would hit a brick wall I'm sure), not crowdsourcing. Need people that know the two languages deeply, into editing, internet lingo, host/server lingo, forum/site management lingo, etc. Doing this stuff myself could take forever, almost have to dissect and do each sentence carefully, in order to please both parties. The point was proven just by Geronimo's feedback. All of this will and would take a really long time.


    It's even harder when no one helps post suggestions, no one edits the ones I propose to maybe offer an alternative, no staff chime in to say whether they'd be considered or accepted, etc. My hands are tied, I'm limited to what all files can be worked on at Github as well. I just don't know how much more can be done here, even the current ones I proposed are still hanging in the balance, with uncertainty from staff. I could try and, at least, finish up the ones I've posted in bug report threads, though.


    I also think it would be easier, to just post the sentences themselves, in code=diff format - or +, rather than the <item XML markup included, because it's more work posting all that markup, when really main focus should be on the sentences themselves. Then worry about including the markup later after most approve them. Example below, I could do the others like this too of course.


    I'm not sure about this one though: (in minutes, -1 for infinite) if it should be (in minutes, or, -1 for infinite) or...

    Diff
    - Minimum period between creation of two posts. [time in seconds]
    + The minimum time between the creation of two posts (in seconds).


    Diff
    - Minimum delay between creation of two consecutive posts in the same thread. [time in minutes, -1 for infinite]
    + Delay between two consecutive posts (in minutes, -1 for infinite).


    Diff
    - During this period members may edit their own posts [time in minutes, -1 for infinite]
    + The time members may edit their own posts (in minutes, -1 for infinite).

    Edited 17 times, last by Smooey ().

  • I also think it would be easier, to just post the sentences themselves, in code=diff format - or +, rather than the <item XML markup included

    The markup also contains the actual name of the phrase, making it much easier to recognize it. It's also important in case a variable's value gets changed in the meantime, because they raw value may no longer be found.


    Also the lack of feedback from us is on purpose, but for a good reason. Doing it at at once is far easier, as one gets to look at the entire picture to see if there are any new inconsistencies introduced or other hiccups sneaked in.

    Alexander Ebert
    Senior Developer WoltLab® GmbH

  • The markup also contains the actual name of the phrase, making it much easier to recognize it. It's also important in case a variable's value gets changed in the meantime, because they raw value may no longer be found.

    Right, you need to know where the phrases are going too (by the markup), in order to know if the wording will work or not in those areas... I guess I was just assuming that could be added in later after revamping things (sentence-wise), so you can see the change to main focus point (the sentence itself) easier. Visually it's easier to just see the - and + for sentence structure, "yes, that works for me!" .. "no, that won't work, but how about this..."



    Also the lack of feedback from us is on purpose, but for a good reason. Doing it at at once is far easier, as one gets to look at the entire picture to see if there are any new inconsistencies introduced or other hiccups sneaked in.

    Alright, gotcha. :) ;)

  • transifex.com/ is free for open source projects, and WCF is free software.

    be reminded that only the WCF is open source, pretty much everything on top of it, like the WBB isnt.


    @Alexander Ebert


    well english is a fairly complex language, and stuff surely doesnt get easier when you want to focus on American, rather than british or whatever, especially because (at least that's how it was for me in Sachsen/Saxony) in school ppl learn mainly british english.

    aus angst vor Capslock nutze ich selten shift.


    in fear of capslock I rarely use shift.