[Ready] Grammar Use & Punctuation: ACP - Community - Forums + General Areas + User Groups

  • I must admit that I my initial reply was rather subpar and I should've written it in a much more defensive way. I tried to state that - according to my knowledge of certain grammar rules - it is allowed to omit periods for certain types of sentences, but it sounded more like a definite answer. Being a non-native speaker makes this more difficult as I have to rely on these rules to get things correct, but at the same time can lead to false assumptions - something that native speakers intuitively get right.


    Given this background, I was more looking for a discussion on this in order to clarify if my understanding of certain grammar rules was correct or misused. In the meantime I had some sleep and spend a few thoughts on some phrases you brought up and I came to the conclusion that your suggestions are correct. Some other phrases are incomplete sentences for no apparent reason (makes them even harder to understand) and should be changed into full sentences instead.



    Regarding the suggestion on using paid translators to do the job: We tried this multiple times in the past and the results were rather devastating. This is primarily caused by the fact that they simply have not enough knowledge of the software or forum softwares in general, leading to really wonky and misleading translations. This might sound strange to some of you, but in fact is a real issue among translators as one has to pretty much understand the context in order to find the correct phrases.


    As a result we decided to handle the entire translation on our own:

    • Consistency
      Using the same phrases and verbalizations throughout the entire software, ultimately creating a pattern.
    • Accuracy
      Translation requires a lot of knowledge on the specific topic/feature as there are usually multiple ways to translate something; This intersects with the aforementioned argument to some extent.
    • Continuation
      With 3rd party translators you cannot guarantee to have additional translation work to be handled by the same person for whatever reason. This leads to slightly different results, potentially causing some serious confusion because two similar subjects are phrased in a completely different way


    In general we're not against spending money to have this done right, but the past has shown how difficult it is to end up with a satisfying translation.

    Alexander Ebert
    Senior Developer WoltLab® GmbH

  • I must admit that I my initial reply was rather subpar and I should've written it in a much more defensive way. I tried to state that - according to my knowledge of certain grammar rules - it is allowed to omit periods for certain types of sentences, but it sounded more like a definite answer. Being a non-native speaker makes this more difficult as I have to rely on these rules to get things correct, but at the same time can lead to false assumptions - something that native speakers intuitively get right.


    Given this background, I was more looking for a discussion on this in order to clarify if my understanding of certain grammar rules was correct or misused. In the meantime I had some sleep and spend a few thoughts on some phrases you brought up and I came to the conclusion that your suggestions are correct. Some other phrases are incomplete sentences for no apparent reason (makes them even harder to understand) and should be changed into full sentences instead.

    Well, I must admit that I woke up on the wrong side of the bed yesterday, angry in general, and shouldn't have
    jumped the gun in a defensive way, and I apologize for that. I didn't give you all the time to explain everything as you just did. Honestly, I'm not great with grammar rules, and punctuation either.


    But was mainly just reporting ones that were missing periods in places, where others in the same area included the periods. I was trying to keep them/things consistent. The rebuild data related ones, the user group description list item ones, I wasn't sure about, so I just put them in there to see if they needed periods or not.


    I'm not sure what to suggest for making some into full sentences, though, I haven't really thought that far into it of course. I was just trying to keep things consistent. Maybe some of us can think on things a little more and give suggestions in the threads they're reported in. By the way, whoever recovered my threads that I deleted, thank you. :)

    Oh I can imagine, because like you said, they weren't familiar with the software and context in which they're used. We're here to try and help of course. Rafix is pretty good with English grammar and its rules, but the guy is super busy with work, etc. Throwholics might be a good person to help between German and English, as he's done translations for my plugins. But it would be a lot of work on him or anyone in general. This translation work might have to be handled slowly too, I'm sure won't happen overnight. I'd rather see it done right over a long period of time than half-assed over a short period of time.

    In general we're not against spending money to have this done right, but the past has shown how difficult it is to end up with a satisfying translation.

    I think the one you could use and benefit from is the one Aethior suggested, as it's not just a team of in home translators you're using, but also allows you to handle them yourselves. The pricing isn't too bad either I don't believe, and a lot of big named companies use it, programs as well as software.


    The one Throwholics suggested is working great so far as I type into posts, it finds a lot of errors as I type out my posts. Grammar punctuation, grammar rules, grammar spelling, etc. Then I click the red button and it pops up a window with green "correct" option to choose to correct it. Didn't notice how bad my grammar was until using this Firefox extension... Haha. But I don't think the Grammarly route would be good for doing XML language file translations, though.


    Anyway, we're here to help, though, as much as possible. Things might get taken out of proportion, or taken wrong sometimes, etc. But that's just nature of the beast and happens sometimes. Again, apologize for jumping the gun, getting frustrated and upset so quickly. Now I must sleep.

  • Didn't notice how bad my grammar was until using this Firefox extension..

    haha yeah Grammarly is really good for browsers ;) And the Office Word Extension is awesome actually ;)



    Haha. But I don't think the Grammarly route would be good for doing XML language file translations,

    Maybe not the right product for WL to use translating XML files.
    But with the word Extension for example one could copy the language file into word and then let Grammarly do the magic

  • What I plan on doing here is just editing first and second posts with new grammar proposals which are separated as "Completed" or "Incomplete", and then Alex can check them out. And if he wants too he can edit them a little more etc. I think it will be a little better just editing first and second posts using Grammarly, rather than try to find an English grammar expert in forums etc.


    What I better do is create new threads titled after their location in the ACP etc. There's just way too many in the first post to go through them. I think making their own individual threads based on location is better, easier to read and manage, and if you need to resort back to the threads it will be easier as well.


    Others can chime in leaving their suggestions, ideas, opinions as well, and I can always edit the first post to make the modifications etc. Once they're all "Completed" and to everyone's liking, then he /they can implement the changes into core. Some of the titles can or should be altered a little bit because then you can build better descriptions around better titles, rather than build descriptions around titles that don't make sense.


    If he or they want too, they could even implement them as I complete or adjust them, if they approve them of course. And then by the time they're all "Completed", they can just label it as "fixed" and move it to Resolved forum. Also, if the titles and descriptions are basically the same in 4.2/2.2 they can just easily merge these changes into 4.2/2.2 saving on work. Then 4.2./2.2 will have all these changes too and make 4.2/2.2 even better.


    I'd also like to get these current ones I've reported fixed before next release, then report newer ones later for another update release. Otherwise, it will be confusing and I'll lose track of things.


    Edit: The ones with "Grammar Use & Punctuation" in titles should be ready and checked out, drop feedback etc. The only one not gone over yet is the Language - W.C.F. missing punctuation thread. I'll do that soon here.


    Edit 2: There are ones in the first post of this thread that are completed/revamped as well.

    Edited 9 times, last by Smooey ().

  • Regarding the suggestion on using paid translators to do the job: We tried this multiple times in the past and the results were rather devastating. This is primarily caused by the fact that they simply have not enough knowledge of the software or forum softwares in general, leading to really wonky and misleading translations. This might sound strange to some of you, but in fact is a real issue among translators as one has to pretty much understand the context in order to find the correct phrases.

    On the one hand, I agree that translations of technology products are very content-oriented and shouldn't be assigned to translators who aren't familiar with the context. On the other hand, it shouldn't be too difficult to find English native speakers who are proficient with forum management or have some experience in coding that for a fee wouldn't be willing to help improve WBB's English translation. I add that the decision to translate the software in-house must haven't landed better results, considering that it led to general linguistic inconsistency, punctuation problems, and oddly-worded phrases and terminology that we are all aware of at this point.


    With 3rd party translators you cannot guarantee to have additional translation work to be handled by the same person for whatever reason. This leads to slightly different results, potentially causing some serious confusion because two similar subjects are phrased in a completely different way

    As well, you cannot have the same group of non-native individuals tasked to translate a language they don't master. The only consistency and continuation you will see in this case are the repeated mistakes the non-native speaker's mind keeps making unaware (believing they are correct) which are reflected in the software.


    All things considered, I think that giving up professional translations only because of a bad experience isn't the way to go if that means relying on in-house or crowdsourced solutions. I already suggested that one way to address this problem could be starting a continued and close collaboration with native speaker translators or hiring native speaker freelancers that familiar with internet lingo and current technologies.

    Edited 4 times, last by rafix73 ().

  • I was just thinking about this, but there should be some sort of act of good faith given to us (this shouldn't be suggested, but done by or thought of by staff on their own accord) / current paying customers that are doing a lot of bug reporting and translation, grammar correcting, etc. Even if it's getting free update access to next version of software, along with updates to the blog, gallery, calendar, file-base plugin products or some such.


    Because most of this stuff should be handled or provided by the developers themselves since day one of creating software, not expecting paying customers to take time out of their day to do it (only to have most shot down anyway for most things proposed or suggested). Then in order to enjoy the fruits of their labor, they get stuck having to buy update access.


    Basically buying broken or incomplete products, the customers end up reporting, fixing, correcting, translating freely, then have to buy all over again to enjoy the fruits of their FREE labor the developers take advantage of in first place, and should be handled by the developers since day one / conception of the software itself.


    You don't buy vBulletin, XenForo, Invision Power Board as customers, and spend all the time translating their software over bad English grammar usage, punctuation usage, etc, reporting millions of bugs, etc, only to enjoy the fixes in newer versions that you have to pay to get. I know the basic bug reporting will be there of course. But it's like getting a job somewhere to get paid to work, but instead, you work for free and pay the employer.

    Edited 7 times, last by Smooey ().

  • Main language is German, I bet there are language mistakes for German as well?

    Yeah, probably... lmao but the Germans would/should be reporting bad German language usage. Hence why I said above about: You don't buy vBulletin, XenForo, Invision Power Board as customers, and spend all the time translating their software over bad English grammar usage, punctuation usage, etc.


    Cause their main language is English. If they packed it with Bad English, like WBB was, then customers would be reporting Bad English usage to Xenforo devs, etc. Lol.

  • Yeah but you have now two different viewpoints...



    You don't buy vBulletin, XenForo, Invision Power Board as customers, and spend all the time translating their software over bad English grammar usage, punctuation usage, etc.

    You would need to do so for German language



    Cause their main language is English.

    And Woltlab main language is German



    So its the same for the other forum softwares just vice verca

  • So its the same for the other forum softwares just vice verca

    Haha, that's what I was saying in last two posts, well, edited original post to emphasize it / correct my wording. But you had to point it out twice, which is okay, just makes us more work with replies. :P Oh Lordy I need sleep, all this is frying brain and it's 6:18am now. lmao.


    Edit: I did some more in this thread: Language - W.C.F. missing punctuation The second post (bottom) will need finished yet though.

    Edited once, last by Smooey ().

  • Yeah, probably... lmao but the Germans would/should be reporting bad German language usage. Hence why I said above about: You don't buy vBulletin, XenForo, Invision Power Board as customers, and spend all the time translating their software over bad English grammar usage, punctuation usage, etc.
    Cause their main language is English. If they packed it with Bad English, like WBB was, then customers would be reporting Bad English usage to Xenforo devs, etc. Lol.

    Are you seriously trying to state that those other software products do not have language bugs? :whistling:

  • Are you seriously trying to state that those other software products do not have language bugs?

    No, I'm sure other software have language bugs in the main default language(s). Just not sure how much they have compared to WBB (the ones I'm currently working on), but went on the assumption it's not near as much as WBB have, across all their products. Lol. I wonder who or what the other software developers use for their translations, grammar usage, spelling, etc. I'm also wondering if another software has second (main) languages in the core. But I'm guessing, since those three are mainly English software, the software only has one main language (English) and the other translations are handled by community users.

  • Woltlab ships with two languages, not just one, though. Yes, the product itself is/was originally German only, but at the point they included English language files in core and sold the products to their customers, it's been "two" main languages, not just one. I don't recall installing Burning Board software with German only language, then manually importing another language file for English.


    I get what you're saying of course, it's a German company creating German software, the main user base here are Germans, it's originally German only software, the most users using the software are German, etc, hence the main attention to grammar, punctuation, and such was probably done to German language file. But this is really getting way off-topic, just because of something I said in a sarcastic way several posts above...

    Edited 3 times, last by Smooey ().

  • Woltlab ships with two languages, not just one, though. Yes, the product itself is/was originally German only, but at the point they included English language files in core and sold the products to their customers, it's been "two" main languages, not just one. I don't recall installing Burning Board software with German only language, then manually importing another language file for English.


    I get what you're saying of course, it's a German company creating German software, the main user base here are Germans, it's originally German only software, the most users using the software are German, etc, hence the main attention to grammar, punctuation, and such was probably done to German language file. But this is really getting way off-topic, just because of something I said in a sarcastic way several posts above...

    You went beyond sarcastic and dove straight into demanding to get compensated for your efforts.

  • You went beyond sarcastic and dove straight into demanding to get compensated for your efforts.

    Doesn't matter, but it was more of a suggestion.



    Quote from Smooey

    should be some sort of act of good faith given to us (this shouldn't be suggested, but done by or thought of by staff on their own accord


    Who else will do it freely, you? I haven't noticed you offered to do anything but pick fights or get snarky with the people actually doing things around here since you've been on these boards. Unless they paid professionals, which they clearly stated had a lot of issues with previously.


    The typical bug reporting is always going to be there regardless, but when you start helping to rewrite the language files to get them more correct and proper, it's a bigger task and job. It's amazing how all these people chime in to fight, yet do nothing constructive themselves.


    Doesn't hurt to ask for one-time compensation for doing a lot of work, and isn't quite fair either to do all this work only to end up paying for it later. "Sure Harry, you can pull weeds, and get my garden nice and pretty, and then afterwards you can pay me for doing it. No one else is offering to help me with it."

    Edited 5 times, last by Smooey ().

  • no. It was passive aggressive.

  • Edited first post proposals to be as such...


    Made some changes regarding brackets / parenthesises , hopefully, I used them properly and these are a little nicer than the originals. :P Did something similar to these so far for gallery: Grammar Use & Punctuation: ACP - Maintenance - Rebuild Data + General areas All other ones I haven't done yet.




    Diff
    - <item name="wbb.board.filterByDate"><![CDATA[Timeframe]]></item>
    + <item name="wbb.board.filterByDate"><![CDATA[Time Frame]]></item>


    or

    Diff
    - <item name="wbb.board.filterByDate"><![CDATA[Timeframe]]></item>
    + <item name="wbb.board.filterByDate"><![CDATA[Time Range]]></item>


    Diff
    - <item name="wcf.acp.group.option.user.board.floodControlTime.description"><![CDATA[Minimum period between creation of two posts. [time in seconds]]]></item>
    + <item name="wcf.acp.group.option.user.board.floodControlTime.description"><![CDATA[The minimum time between the creation of two posts (in seconds).]]></item>


    Diff
    - <item name="wbb.acp.board.style.description"><![CDATA[Forces selected style upon board visit.]]></item>
    + <item name="wbb.acp.board.style.description"><![CDATA[This will force the selected style upon visting the board.]]></item>
    Diff
    - <item name="wcf.acp.group.option.user.conversation.maxParticipants.description"><![CDATA[Maximum number of participants per conversation]]></item>
    + <item name="wcf.acp.group.option.user.conversation.maxParticipants.description"><![CDATA[The maximum number of participants per conversation.]]></item>
    Diff
    - <item name="wcf.acp.group.option.user.conversation.maxConversations.description"><![CDATA[Maximum number of active conversations per user]]></item>
    + <item name="wcf.acp.group.option.user.conversation.maxConversations.description"><![CDATA[The maximum number of active conversations per user.]]></item>
    Diff
    - <item name="wcf.acp.group.option.user.board.doublePostLock.description"><![CDATA[Minimum delay between creation of two consecutive posts in the same thread. [time in minutes, -1 for infinite]]]></item>
    + <item name="wcf.acp.group.option.user.board.doublePostLock.description"><![CDATA[Delay between two consecutive posts (in minutes, -1 for infinite).]]></item>
    Diff
    - <item name="wcf.acp.group.option.user.board.postEditTimeout.description"><![CDATA[During this period members may edit their own posts [time in minutes, -1 for infinite]]]></item></item>
    + <item name="wcf.acp.group.option.user.board.postEditTimeout.description"><![CDATA[The time members may edit their own posts (in minutes, -1 for infinite).]]></item>

    Edited once, last by Smooey ().