[Ready] Grammar Use & Punctuation: ACP - Community - Forums + General Areas + User Groups

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    Edited 74 times, last by Smooey ().

  • One has to differentiate between complete and partial/incomplete sentences, the latter do not end with a period. This is especially true for list items that contain only a fraction of a sentence.

    Alexander Ebert
    Senior Developer WoltLab® GmbH

  • This is bullshit man, because obviously there's a bunch above that get swept under rug or classified as not a bug, just because you claim some of them aren't bugs. Just look at screen shots for examples with red borders around the ones I'm talking about. There's two in same screen shot below that have periods, where I reported above two that are missing periods for same type things you deemed deserve periods. If you go through acp .. there's plenty of these types with periods... but plenty MISSING periods..

    Code
    <item name="wcf.acp.group.option.user.board.doublePostLock.description"><![CDATA[Minimum delay between creation of two consecutive posts in the same thread. [time in minutes, -1 for infinite]]]></item>


    So ones missing periods... wont get fixed, while others just like that are having periods. Then my as well just remove all fucking periods from all the things in acp then.. It's clear and blatantly obvious woltlab don't want English friendly transitioning and help, but gladly make millions of changes from a Spanish guy that's in no means a professional Spanish to English translator guy.


    You just pass off true bugs as not bugs, so the software is left with broken issues or punctuation issues here and there. I'm done filing bugs from now on then, if issues come up, fuck it, I'm done. Let the Spanish guy find the bugs and hope he finds ones I found or find. Or I'll just report them to him via private message so he can report them, because after all everything he reports get fixed or modified. Good luck with it. And one sentence to add to Gallery description is heaven forbid too much to ask for too. My as well refund all English their money so they can move to English/American software, and go back to full German only here too.

  • There might be inconsistencies within the English phrases and we're always looking forward to correct these things. Besides that my response above was entirely based upon the grammar rules which do allow omitting periods for incomplete sentences and explicitly allow omitting these for list items (as long as all items are incomplete sentences, not mixing both types).

    Alexander Ebert
    Senior Developer WoltLab® GmbH

  • This is especially true for list items that contain only a fraction of a sentence.

    You or better Woltlab should take the advise from the native speakers if WL does not pay for professional proof read...
    It seems @Smooey pointed out a lot of mistakes... and they are mistakes....


    EDIT:



    Besides that my response above was entirely based upon the grammar rules which do allow omitting periods for incomplete sentences and explicitly allow omitting these for list items

    Alright, you just "defused" the situation a bit with that comment i guess ;)


    Come on @Smooey continue your great working reporting the bugs!

  • And yet any and all proposals by the Spanish guy, even language phrase edit suggestions like this are implemented without a fight. Lol. Nah I'm done throwholics...


    You or better Woltlab should take the advise from the native speakers if WL does not pay for professional proof read...

    Even if they hired a professional, they'd mark them as not a bug anyway, cause they know English better (pay out money to professionals for nothing), and the Spanish guy apparently knows English better than English people. They shoot down the free help, and they'd shoot down the paid help, unless you're Aethior then it's accepted. I can only do so much to help improve the software, and arguing with developers and getting them to see our points is like fighting the tide, it's pointless.


    Like I said previously, I just have to message privately Aethior for any bugs I find and have him report them, so that way they get taken care of immediately. He's the official bug reporter and his stuff is golden and accepted (proof in pudding, view closed bug reports forum). We best make notices to other English not bother reporting anything anymore, just message Aethior if you find bugs so he can report them all.

    Edited 8 times, last by Smooey ().

  • After calming down a bit here, should I take those ones I pointed out with screen shots and repost them as new bugs? Since majority were deemed not a bug? Because it don't look right man, as you can seen from screen shots some were given periods by you all originally, where two others aren't and they're basically same things.


    Also it looks off with ones having periods in same place where one or two is missing periods. I agree though there's a good bit in first post and the other thread where they might not need periods, for like the rebuilding data, user group list things etc. But there are ones that have periods since day one, then other ones in same area aren't given periods at all for sentences in descriptions.


    I know you don't want to pay for translators, grammar fixers etc, but shooting down the free help doesn't help either, when they clearly point out inconsistencies.

    Edited 10 times, last by Smooey ().

  • You or better Woltlab should take the advise from the native speakers if WL does not pay for professional proof read...

    True that. +1


    It is no secret that the current English translation is a bit of a mess. While it is true that periods can be omitted from lists (and the ACP is after a big list of options), the rule is applied inconsistently, and you find complete sentences without a period and some incomplete clauses having one. We cannot expect non-professional or not native speakers volunteers within the community to identify and correct the many botched language variables. It's just silly.


    This is why the suggestion to leave translation and proofreading to English native speaker professionals never gets old. If WoltLab has an actual and serious intention to touch broader and international markets, in order to be competitive WBB's English translation needs a do-over, and fix all the wording that is disrupting and annoying to English native speaker customer.

    Edited 2 times, last by rafix73 ().

  • Reading this thread seems that I have carte blanche... My language reports are based on consistency and usually is not necessary to discuss it, but I never report advanced grammar errors.


    I submit reports or suggestions because I like to test the software and collaborate with the Community, but I'm a customer. And not all my reports or suggestions are accepted. Sometimes I have to argue my opinion and attach examples (image, video, code...).


    Offtopic: In Spanish the . is obligatory at the end of a sentence (except titles).

  • Yeah, and that's what I was doing too about inconsistencies, but adding periods to sentences isn't that advanced grammar error editing, it's given when making sentences that deserve it at end of it. I can just imagine their "love letters" written to girlfriends or general letters to friends, run on sentences, no punctuation at all, just Moby Dick novels of one big run-on sentence from Chapter one to last chapter lol.


    Anyway, I helped save them the trouble with the blog, calendar, and gallery punctuation bug reports that didn't get labels yet, I deleted them. It saves on them having to reject it anyway.

    Edited once, last by Smooey ().

  • Reading this thread seems that I have carte blanche... My language reports are based on consistency and usually is not necessary to discuss it, but I never report advanced grammar errors.


    I submit reports or suggestions because I like to test the software and collaborate with the Community, but I'm a customer. And not all my reports or suggestions are accepted. Sometimes I have to argue my opinion and attach examples (image, video, code...).


    Offtopic: In Spanish the . is obligatory at the end of a sentence (except titles).

    No one is questioning the genuine dedication you put into this bug-chasing mission you have undertaken. However, even with all this commitment, your contribution is a drop in the ocean compared to what the software really needs to better its English translation.


    Ironically, your constant and relentless input could be the reasons other steps to improve the translation have never been taken so far, because you know... Aethior is on it. I just hope that in the long run what you're doing won't backfire, leaving the current inconsistent English translation as is because it's considered "good enough."

  • Usually the languages are the least important thing in the software development, but not because developers don't want to do better, because they are developers and not translators. Woltlab has the resources to contract professional translators? I don't know...


    To be honest I think one of the handicaps of Woltlab is one of his feature: multilingualism. The English community want a better English translation and German community want a German Informal translation. It's so difficult manage one language, and now we want more official languages... also we want WCF, Burning Board, Blog, Calendar, Filebase... and we want a fair price... Woltlab has great challenges ahead...


    My opinion? You can't to manage two communities for the same goal. You can't to discuss bugs or suggestions in differents languages because many people can't to participate in the discussion. I think these boards should be international sections in English.


    About languages I think that Woltlab has to explore new solutions: for example focus in a good English translation and try to use a online translation tool for other languages. If the Community want more languages also have to contribute (but is not easy translate. It's necessary create teams, style guides, know the software style, etc.). Only the WCF has more than 2700 phrases, It's impossible manage a good translation without help and tools (colaborative translation tool, changelogs, etc.).

  • they are developers and not translators

    This is the reason why they should focus on developing and leave the translation to native speakers.


    Usually the languages are the least important thing in the software development

    Not true. An exceptional translation allows the software to be truly competitive in a market where this is considered a given (taken for granted). Failing to do so, puts you behind the competitors and turns off many potential customers. And as we know, this has been happening, because this is the one recurring criticism moved on WBB heard on various discussion boards.


    we want more official languages

    There should only be one official language, which is the language of business and the language of profit, used all over the world. Guess what that is. They must decide to either go all on out for the international market or stay a product that struggles to make everyone happy.


    and we want a fair price

    I never complained about the price. This is a high quality product worth its money, and if WBB featured an English translation that were up to par with the competition, I wouldn't mind paying more for it.


    My opinion? You can't to manage two communities for the same goal.

    And in fact the goal should be one only: make the product really competitive. They need to make a choice, something has to give in order to reach broader markets.


    It's necessary create teams, style guides, know the software style

    I agree, and these teams should be made of those who know the technology behind the product (staff maybe?) along with (possibly professional translator) English native speakers.

    Edited once, last by rafix73 ().

  • Maybe Woltlab should consider using Grammarly:
    grammarly.com

    will have to check that out, thanks. :)

    transifex.com/ is free for open source projects, and WCF is free software. Maybe they can to create a demo and valorate the experience. (source: transifex.com/customers/open-source/)

    a lot of well-known software on that customers list. just might be what woltlab needs... :thumbup:


    would be interesting to see the results from both of those you guys provided, see which things be left alone, or which ones to adjust / correct. but probably won't matter anyway, "they" know best...

    Edited 4 times, last by Smooey ().

  • Transifex is a web-based translation platform. You can to submit new translations, discuss the current translation, etc.

  • Maybe they can to create a demo and valorate the experience. (source: transifex.com/customers/open-source/)

    nice list!


    Not sure if Woltlab would count as open source due to the professional applicatons wbb, blog, calendar, filebase and gallery.


    And I don't think it would make so much sense to do it only for the WCF language file.


    Regarding grammarly for example: one can get an account and check the language files right away, one does have money back guarantee if one is not satisfied...
    So basically using grammarly and before the 1 week deadline appears one cancels the account.