Remove the user group called everyone

  • Not correct, I've made some screenshots for you :). They where made on a local XAMPP with a default Buring Board 4.1 without changes to the default user rights.


    Forumpage as guest:


    The topiclist as guest, as you can see the guest can't start a topic:


    The topic as guest and you can see a guest can't replay:


    Here is the topiclist as a Registered User as you can see he can Create new Topics where the guest can't:


    Here is the topic as a Registered User, he can reply and create new topics:


    This is the view of the Admin:


    This forum had no specific rights set:


    The biggest point why the everyone group wont be removed at least in the 2.X Version is the that it would mean an entire rewrite of the entire forum + everything else (and that would take years ;) )

    Linux: Born to Frag 8) :D

  • I personally like having Everyone group, considering that some plugins install with access permission disabled by default for all groups. Everyone group allows me to enable them for all groups with one click instead of setting it for each group. This comes handy if you you're trying out a lot of addons in a test forum. In sum, the ability to enable/disable features and plugins and features for all groups makes Everyone useful to me.

  • Not correct, I've made some screenshots for you :). They where made on a local XAMPP with a default Buring Board 4.1 without changes to the default user rights.




    The biggest point why the everyone group wont be removed at least in the 2.X Version is the that it would mean an entire rewrite of the entire forum + everything else (and that would take years ;) )


    I cannot confirm your findings. To disable something for "guest" it must be disabled in BOTH everyone and guest.

  • it would mean an entire rewrite of the entire forum + everything else (and that would take years )

    I believe so, too. I also think it's beneficial to have a 'wildcard' group such as Everyone.

  • I believe so, too. I also think it's beneficial to have a 'wildcard' group such as Everyone.

    If it was not associated with "guest" ... I likely wouldn't have a problem with it. But having to always double check both is something I'd like to live without as I add or remove things.

  • I find it useful exactly for its ability to override Guest group. It allows both fine tuning or simply set permissions for all groups, as in the case of addons testing, etc.


    But to each one their own I guess. I just think that removing it would be now impractical, because it would require a complete overhaul of the core, which I don't see justified only to change such minor feature. Who knows what the silent majority thinks of this ;)

  • I find it useful exactly for its ability to override Guest group. It allows both fine tuning or simply set permissions for all groups, as in the case of addons testing, etc.


    But to each one their own I guess. I just think that removing it would be now impractical, because it would require a complete overhaul of the core, which I don't see justified only to change such minor feature. Who knows what the silent majority thinks of this ;)

    The majority of site, including Woltlab.com limit guest on X actions. Having to check 2 groups just to impose 1 setting in 1 group... Guest of all groups... Isn't idea since most site do impose limitations on guest (including Woltlab.com)


    Now an alternative would be to keep the "everyone", but disassociate this from guest.

  • You're seeing is as a limitation, while I'm fine with the fact that a wildcard group allows to override also Guest group - that's the whole point of its nature. Besides, whenever I want to limit Everyone group's "power" I do so under Edit forum permission in User Groups. Really, I don't see as being a big of an issue, and while we can keep arguing pro or against its usefulness as it is, it is still a fact that removing it now isn't doable for the reason explained in the posts above.


    Gotta live with it ;)

  • If you don't find working with the 'everyone'-group to be intuitive enough then why don't you simply deactivate everything for that group? That way you won't ever have to deal with it again (that is, until you install a package affecting it).


    There are more upsides than downsides on why to have this group around and the forementioned workaround works good enough to not warrant removing the group.


    It's simply one of these idioms a community software has like XenForo and nodes or IPB and it's hooks.

  • Now an alternative would be to keep the "everyone", but disassociate this from guest.

    That would be just plain wrong, sorry. Because then it wouldn't be everyone anymore. A guest is someone and so he is also part of the everyone group.


    You just have to accept that one user can be part of multiple groups. This approach has many benefits. For example when you have Group A and Group B and they both have their specific set of rights - let's say one group is your IRC-Operators Group, which has access to the IRC-Ops subforum, which is invisible for everyone else. And you have the "Moderator" group. If you could not be part of multiple groups, there would not be a way without creating a newgroup for an IRc-Op to also be a Moderator on your board.


    Once you have accepted that being able to be in multiple groups at once is indeed a beneficial things, it's not hard to grasp why the "Everyone" group that includes literally everyone also has it benefits. Many of those benefits have already been outlined here, I wont repeat them.


    Restricting the "Everyone" group to NOT be everyone would be counter-intuitive and just simply plain wrong. Then it wouldn't be everyone anymore. If "Everyone" would not include guests, then it would only be registered users - and we already have a group for that.


    You are certainly right. Some times you have to check things twice - once for guests, and once for everyone to make sure permissions are set up the way you want. But on the other hand, if you changed it, you would have to heck both guests and registered users on multiple occasions. You would just trade one inconvenience for another, without any real gain. And that is the main point, why change something when there is nothing to gain?


    Changing the behavior of the permissions system won't happen until WCF 3.0 anyways, as it would be a dramatic change and would likely break backwards compatibility in so many ways (default permissions of plugins for example).

    "A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" — Leonard Nimoy

  • Changing the behavior of the permissions system won't happen until WCF 3.0 anyways, as it would be a dramatic change and would likely break backwards compatibility in so many ways (default permissions of plugins for example).

    When it happens isn't so much a problem as long as it happens. WCF 3.0 is acceptable.


    The advantages everyone talks about is great if you have a lot of user groups, but the fact that is is included with guest is a problem. So perhaps I should make another suggestion to keep the everyone group, but disassociate it it from guest because it is like having 2 guest groups.


    Because all the benefits everyone keeps talking about is null and void if your desire is to limit guest, which the majority do... Including Woltlab.com

  • The feature is useless to the majority in its current form

    I can see you feel strongly about this topic, but sometimes the way we perceive things -- that is, the way our bias filter reality based on what we think we need -- tends to make us believe that what we think is right, by logic, applies to everyone else.


    I don't think that as it is this feature is useless as you claim, nor are its advantages null or void only because it's tied to Guest group. I actually like that Everyone group is able to override Guest, and believe it or not, more forums than you may think actually have more than 5 or 6 user groups, (staff, premium, editors, contributors, supporters, different sub-clans and teams, etc), and having Everyone group able to override them and Guest does help managing permission.

    Edited 2 times, last by rafix73 ().

  • I can see you feel strongly about this topic, but sometimes the way we perceive things -- that is, the way our bias filter reality based on what we think we need -- tends to make us believe that what we think is right, by logic, applies to everyone else.
    I don't think that as it is this feature is useless as you claim, nor are its advantages null or void only because it's tied to Guest group. I actually like that Everyone group is able to override Guest, and believe it or not, more forums than you may think actually have more than 5 or 6 user groups, (staff, premium, editors, contributors, supporters, different sub-clans and teams, etc), and having Everyone group able to override them and Guest does help managing permission.

    With the exception of people who allow things for guest, which is a minority... One need only do a random search for forums and good luck finding one where guest can post.


    Show me the list of well known big boards that allow guest posting. The majority turn off this feature. I do not know how to prove common knowledge. It's not just an opinion it is what it is. If I do even so much as a Google search (or Bing) for forums... You're not going to find one within the first 20 pages (I know, I just did the search).


    Other than Woltlab, no development has this turned on by default... None. Like I don't know how to reason this common understanding with you.


    The everyone group IS useful if you have many groups. I do admit that, which is why in post #1 I retracted this request in favor of this request
    Keep the user group called everyone, but disassociate it from guest

  • Other than Woltlab, no development has this turned on by default... None. Like I don't know how to reason this common understanding with you.

    The fact that WBB doesn't adhere to other boards' trends doesn't make this choice wrong, actually, it's the opposite.


    By the way, it doesn't matter if you allow Everyone group to view and enter forum under Edit User Group, if you deny Guest group access under forum permission it will not be overridden by Everyone Group settings, unless you specify so again in the forum permission. To do so is needed only one click, no need to jump between user groups ;)

  • By the way, it doesn't matter if you allow Everyone group to view and enter forum under Edit User Group, if you deny Guest group access under forum permission it will not be overridden by Everyone Group settings

    I cannot confirm or reproduce your findings.


    If that was true... This request and the other request, would not be here and this would not be an issue. As far as I can repeat... The everyone group DOES override the guest group.

  • Yes it does.
    But you have 2 different sets of group rights.
    On one side you have the global group rights which includes the right for just access to the forum itself.
    On the other hand you can set up for every Forum or Category specific Rights.
    If You set in each Category an deny right for guests, it doesn't matter if guests can access the forum itself, they wouldn't see anything.